Do Black Men Hate Black Women? - I'm Being To Believe That It Is A Real Possibility
I hate this idea, it's such a generality, but I really have to wonder. After reading my blogging sista Tami's post on this subject, I can't shake the possibility of this generality having a much larger grain of universal truth in it than ever before. Her post reminded me of D.J. Black Adam's similar kind of post last summer.
There is something ugly going on between black men and women that is undeniable and sad. Black women have become so desperate and turned around in trying to prove their unyielding support of black men that they offer support for the worst kinds of offenses against black women.
Would black men be making excuses if Rihanna had beat Chris Brown's ass and left him sitting bloodied and bruised by the side of the road? They would be laughing at Chris Brown to be sure, but I strongly doubt that they would be cheering on Rihanna. Every black woman stereotype known to man would be raised with a few new ones tossed in.
I'm going to post more on this topic in the future, but I would love to know what folks think. If you can't be grown-up in this discussion, then don't bother commenting. Go over to one of those black gossip sites and hate on black women over there.
25 comments:
IMO (I start that now with every comment I make :) ), I don't think Black Men necessarily hate Black Women, I think many may not necessarily know HOW to really love a Black Women, just like I feel that many Black women may not necessarily know how to properly support a Black man. There's being to supportive and not being supportive enough. Both are bad habits for either gender. And both I believe come from our history with slavery.
I know that I feel like with the Chris Brown situation on the blogs (not this one) that I have been on that it seems sometimes people are taking opinions that state "I want to know all the facts first" as supporting the the behavior and it's not.
I think there needs to be more dialogue between Black men and women about relationships. Not necessarily about sex, but about how to appreciate each other. From what I notice other races (okay white people) don't seem to have an issue addressing this, but when it comes to our community, although were having a lot of sex and are in lots of relationships, when it comes to the intimacy/appreciation part its like its almost taboo to talk about it. People shut down. I think you should start the dialogue at like 16 and up because this is when you're really starting to develop those emotions for a partner.
Wow, you must have read my mind. I tried typing a post and it got so long because there is truly so much to say on this. I will say I have met men (recently more so) that don't like black women and give every dang stereotype under the sun on why they don't want to be with us. But..
I also know black men who love, respect and honor their black women. To quote my guy friend "there ain't nothing better than the love of a black woman." I gotta focus and believe in the ones that do and hope that there will be one left for me. I would love to hear what the men think about this topic you brought up.
BTW I love the picture and poem in the post :)
There is waaaaayyyyy too much to write on such a complicated subject. I don't know if it's as simple as saying "black men hate black woman."
I will say this Prof. - i think in the case of Chris Brown and Rhianna, when you asked the question if the same people defending him would feel the same if it were their mom or sister would they feel the same - it's just that. They would NOT but when they look at Chris and Rhianna they don't see people they see Hollywood characters. It doesn't touch them personally.
All of the women in my life, mom, sister, aunts, grandmother have experienced abuse from men. My father abused my mom when I was a kid verbally and physically. It was hella hurtful to see them fight.
Hey I am the father of three daughters, two of them adults and as me and a fellow basketball official who i partnered with yesterday were discussing - (he is married to the same black woman for 36 years this month) we have both told men in our daughters lives that, "hey... if she likes you I love you. but if you put your hands on her I'll kill ya!" This is a fundamental belief for me. I would die for my sons or my daughters.
Now I think too to another point about domestic abuse - though i would never condone it I also believe (nothing to do with Chris Brown) that sometimes women do say and do things that could potentially bring out a violent response.
Women to me are God's great equalizer - meaning that men tend to rule and make most of the decisions in the world - obviously there is a strong level of sexism... all around the world on different levels... and yet nobody can influence a man for the good or the bad than a woman. Things and accomplishments cannot get to his heart but a woman can.
I have been in situations where I know a woman has said things to me that she knows hurt me to my core.. and laughed about it, mocking me at my lowest point. Sure I was able to walk away, but to have someone hurt you so bad with words or actions who got on the inside of your being without remorse - challenging you on the level like another man and even worse cause the stakes are higher -shoot it's like writing a check you can't cash.
Look Prof. I am old skool ya hear. All respect to woman and the black woman in particularly. I open doors, say maam and the girl can be 16 working at Steak and Shake. So there are different rules when it comes to woman and men in my eyes. In other words the girl can open her own door, but I find pleasure in shilvary. I don't think women can have it both ways - in other words ask me to be that Knight protecting etc. and then buck up at me like a dude or worse. Not saying a woman can't challenge me etc. Cause a strong man can't prosper with a weak woman. Please give me the benefit of the doubt as I try to contextualize.
Equally if a woman steps to me like a dude she is placing herself on that plane. I don't think she can say, "Treat me equally in all faces of the game, but don't touch me even if I touch you." You understand what I'm trying to say? I don't condone man on woman violence - and don't support it under any circumstances. I'm just saying that things that happen in life are not always subject to fairness or my feeble beliefs for that matter.
I think the police should protect me not abuse me - and equally i know i can't just say anything to St. Louis' finest and think cause it's only words etc. that I am going to get by. Not the reality. That's just wisdom.
As men/woman - couples I think we need to learn to respect one another. We have to learn to communicate effectively and work though conflict. We have to learn to table things until both people can discuss issues with a respectful demeanor. We need to be more humble and less competetive.
And if our women want us men to protect them then they have to respect us - of course women need to know how to PICK a man as well who will honor her as such. Not some punk or immature male who is as dumb as a box of rocks.
I wish we could all sit around and discuss this - so that context can be made better. I don't want to come off as condoning any violence or excusing it. I am just saying that we really need to learn to define our roles with ourselves and with our partners - and help one another to meet those expectations.
I've known this for more or less all my life. When you really think about it, it's hardly surprising. It's almost impossible to live in a culture where hatred of black folk is codified and come out loving each other. And here's another biggee, quiet as it's kept, black women hate black men as well.
@Roslyn -
I think there is some truth to that, but I wonder about the level of that hate and what it translates into. I don't see black men going overboard to support black women when they are CLEARLY wrong as I see black women do with the R. Kellys, Chris Browns, Jena 6, Genarlo Wilson. Where is that kind of reverse warped support for us?
And we stay with black men even when they express hatred for us, do they stick with us? I'm not sure.
"And we stay with black men even when they express hatred for us, do they stick with us? I'm not sure."
@ Pro Tracey... I think often they do. I think more often the abuses that's put on men is emotional abuse and it doesn't often have to be with harsh words and therefore we may not always acknowledge it because it can be so subtle. Whereas physical is just put out there for all to see.
Okay, we just got full internet access back at my job so let me stop commenting on blogs, before they take it away again :-)
Is what we do for black men support, or is it really disdain? If we truly see them as fully actualized human beings why would we find it necessary to run to their rescue, no matter what? I do that for my son. He's four years old. What healthy, adult woman does that for an adult man if she truly sees him as an adult? We don't see black men as capable really of much of anything. That's why we feel the need to run to their defense. We've absorbed the white supremacist mindset of black men as perpetual children. And they know how we feel about them, so, of course they hate us. Their hatred of us is more virulent than our hatred of them because it's doubly compounded by the disdain for black women they've absorbed from this culture. Given those parameters I'm actually shocked that ANY black people manage to have a healthy relationship with a member of the opposite sex.
I believe that the support of the artist and entertainers is more hero worship than anything else. We love them more than they love us. That is the issue.
Professor Tracey, a lot of people feel black women deserve to get beaten, my own father who is 82 who says it, even those, he has been disabled in his hand, he still feels that he should try and grab me and when I threatened him, with Jesus, the angels, the Holy Ghost and heaven, he was shocked, because we are verbal, 'PUT THEM UNDER HEAVY MANNERS'. We are the breadwinners of our churches and our communities and we should still be beaten and put in our place, or if they don't beat you, like my ex husband, although he never hit me, I will chuck you back to your parents. Although, I go to church, I had to study the bible and read what God wants for us, and it is prosperity, good health and we are to glorify him, but we really need to have Jesus in our lives, but we have so much false prophets, evil men and women, who stil want to tie us up in slaverly. As I have said previously the Chris Brown/Rhianna affair is a great tragedy, although when they started dating, my heart sank. The only positive aspect out of this whole sorry affair, is that she can heal and known what a nasty person he really is. We like Billie Holliday, Whitney Houston, because they are tragic figures, but Tina Turner, who turned her life around, people criticise her. Black women and black men need to love themselves first before they can love each other. Black women are not the saviour for black men and black men are not the saviour for black women, although we have the same skin colour, we are all individuals and we have to take responsibility for ourselves. We cannot negiotate with evil. We fight it. Men were made for the glorify of God, and women were made for the glory of men, all men. Once we learn that truth, we will start to heal and be free, but if we don't we will still be in chains, we will always have people making excuses for evil men. It is very easy to live with a lie, but it takes tremendous courage to live with the truth and that would mean, some people breaking away from us, but many of these people are cancer and if you don't cut away cancer, it will kill you.
I think everybody is always telling us what's WRONG with us...and because of this we are self-loathing. We cannot begin to express love in our relationships until we love ourselves. Isn't that everyone always says?
I know i'm young but this is my opinion. I believe it goes both ways. I know black women who hate black men but some people give them a pass because they say well they've been hurt. I wrote about something like this on my own blog. Some of our black men are or were being raised by bitter single mothers. I know some women will say "oh you want to blame black women". Well sometimes if the shoe fits. I've seen for my own eyes black women who just love their daughters to death and treat their sons like utter shit. Why? Because he reminded them of their father. So that is one of the reasons for some of these men behavior. Also I was on another site a while back and a black woman was saying she would never support a program that helped black boys at risk only black girls. That kind of behavior is playing a factor as well. As for the whole celebrity thing I never support anybody so nobody say that about me. Also I agree with Felicity we are not each others saviors. We need to stop letting the acts of a few individuals make question these types of things. Also I remember in my African-American Experience class about how some of these things do as a matter of fact link back to slavery.
Peace and blessings.
Keeping with the generality theme, black men, en masse, cannot be labeled "haters of black women" because of what some of them may do to black women. If that were the case, then we could raise the same distracting and divisive question about black women.
I think that there are some PEOPLE that hate themselves far more than they could ever hate another person. And their actions bear me witness.
In my humble opinion, we need to get away from this pre-occupation many of us seem to have surrounding this subject. It is impossible for a black man to hate black women and love himself. So, i think the bigger question or issue is how do we address both men and women who hate themselves and lash out at others.
EYE AM.
@Rosyln:
You wrote: "And here's another biggee, quiet as it's kept, black women hate black men as well."
I am starting to come to that realization. I have been pondering this actuality a bit, haven't quite been able to articulate it.
I intend to blog about this when I can.
@Prof. Tracy:
You wrote: "And we stay with black men even when they express hatred for us, do they stick with us? I'm not sure."
I think sisters stay with certain types of brothers, why? I don't know.
Not to be all glib or anything but I Love Black Women. I think Black Men and Women hate ourselves. It's the self hate that causes us to not believe in the power of being a couple. Being Married instead of just living together. We are damaged.
I don't know of anyway we can fix it except lil by lil.
Jaycee
In what way is calling on black men to lead the community indicative that black women actually believe that black men are capable of doing that? In fact, if black women sincerely believed in black men's ability, why would we think they need us to 'call on them?' Presumably men who are leaders wouldn't need to be called, they would naturally assume that role.
And this much-lauded celebration of black men, this mania of 'only a black man' will do? Actually I think it's a case of 'my lady doth protest too much.' Deep down inside black women know that they see black men as inadequate, so they overcompensate. Vehemently protesting their loyalty and belief in black men as if they're some type of cult or fringe religion. They very much so resemble the people who become religious fanatics. It's not surprising that they too typically come from those who had the greatest trouble believing in the first place.
We need to get real and get honest, but that will never happen. Black people are too embarrassed to acknowledge their true feelings of anger and resentment toward one another. They feel that it's indicative of weakness, when in fact nothing shows your strength better than simple honesty. Where there's anger, bitterness and resentment no real love and commitment can grow. We can't have healthy relationships with men who we don't believe are men, and certainly they won't want to be with women who they see as little more than consolation prizes.
"...Deep down inside black women know that they see black men as inadequate, so they overcompensate. Vehemently protesting their loyalty and belief in black men as if they're some type of cult or fringe religion."
Well said Roslyn, Well said!
Roslyn, you've said a lot of what I've wanted to. I agree with you.
__
Also, I believe black women are unsympathetic to other black women, especially victims of violence, because of this mentality: "Oh, you got your ass kicked! Good! This proves that you are no better than me. This is what life is as a black woman."
This is a "misery loves company" thing. I've heard so many times, one black woman say angrily about another: "She thinks she's better than us! Who does she think she is?" Like it is a crime to have high self-esteem, and desire to be treated well.
I am happy to see black women treated well, who have high self-esteem, and "appear" conceited. We all should desire this.
Too often, being black is defined as: we, as a people, must be at the bottom of life's barrel. We define ourselves by a misery-victim index. We are only "black" based on this: cabs wont stop for us, cops target us, and we are held back at work, etc. Who wouldn't be contemptuous of people who think like this?
Black males today misunderstand true manhood, because there is a lack of what most cultures have - a proper "coming of age" ceremony. Having a black woman underneath you, by dominating her, and abusing her does not make one a man. I really wish being a gentleman was a goal these guys would aspire to, because only males define themselves. Boys don't really listen to their mothers or girlfriends. And I wish the myth that all black women loved thugs would die off.
Overall, black men hate themselves more than they do black women, but we come a close second.
Actually I think it's a case of 'my lady doth protest too much.
Come to think of it Roslyn you are so right , BW really have no confidence in BM and that why so many support any behavior they put forth. BW treat boyfriends like children who they happen to sleep with
I'm a firm believer of ones actions and the actions of the majority of black men show they do not value nor love black women.
They don't love us they tolerate us, just like most of us tolerate them until many women have given up on them completely. If they loved themselves just as they claim to love us it would show in every word, action and deed.
Does the public denigration of black women by black men equal love? Does the constant ridicule, judging and devaluation of the black woman equal love. Does the abandonment of the majority of black children equal love?
Our culture tells us that men are to be protectors and providers of their progeny, who is providing for the majority of black children?
Who is protecting them from the many predators that are on the prowl in the black community?
Are these the actions of men who claim to love black women? The reality is that the majority of black women know the truth and know that if they can provide for their families, surely the black man can do it also.
We now know that it's an excuse and the majority of us do not want to hear how the man is keeping the black man down when we know who is really responsible.
If the majority of black women played the role of a victim our whole community would completely collapse and our children would starve.
@roslyn--the "emasculation issue" was referenced several times in the MSNBC A Father's Promise comments. ANd men were saying that in order for Black men to succeed, they must reject feminism...sounds like they have bought into the whole White Patriarchy to me. And I am tired of that crap.
Hey Prof. Tracey:
*Sighs* I have almost no positive feelings of BM. I hate that I feel this way but I cannot help it. The majority of my experiences and interactions with BM have been negative. If they aren't sexually objectifying/harassing me, they're ignoring me. It's as if I only exist in two paradigms with BM.
What makes this whole situation worse is how I feel about Nigerian men because of the men (especially my father) in my family. If I didn't know my brother, I'd hate his guts because of how he disregards BW (and women in general) and how he worships White and Asian women. My uncle still believes that he's well within his right to hit my aunt.
I've never met a more female-hating bunch in my life. These women in my family were sacrificial lambs. My mom did every and anything for my father because she was raised by her family to be at her husband's beck and call. Her roles were interchangeable. She skillfully transitioned from worthless homemaker, to employed sole contributor (immigrants know the responsibilities they bear in sending remittances "back home" and my dad doled out his earnings along with some of my mom's), to punching bag, to doormat. My father was never satisfied with his family. The man was diseased with such self-hatred that he turned on his own flesh and blood.
Because of what I saw with my family, I don't know WTH Black men are talking about when they say that "sistas don't know how to support their men." There isn't one unsupportive woman in my family so I can't C/S that argument.
I only met one good BM and that was my HS science teacher. That man cared about his students. I didn't feel worthless around him. He didn't sexually objectify his female students. He was also the HS football coach and the players LOVED him. He helped me and a number of students find our after-school job. I have yet to meet another BM like that.
What I'm accustomed to when interacting with BM are "men" who:
- Don't know how to converse and/or string along sentences (It is not my job to help you get my number)
- Scoff at education, intellect, hard work, and ambition
- Don't know that it's inappropriate to make a note of my curvy body parts
- Don't know that it's inappropriate to refer to a female as a "bitch" because she doesn't wet her pants in excitement because you've made a note of her curvy body parts
- Approach me as if I haven't lived until I've had sex with them
- Treat public places (public transit, sidewalks, etc.) as pick-up joints
- Have color complexes
- Don't know how to say "Good morning" and keep it moving (Why do you wanna know about my man? Why do you wanna know if I'm faithful? )
Because of those experiences, I don't make eye contact with BM. I know how I get when I'm disrespected so I try to avoid problems.
I honestly believe that my being dark-skinned doesn't help the situation. My brown-skinned and lighter skinned sista and non-BW friends don't have these extreme experiences that I've had. It's like silly negroes assume that they're doing me some sort of favor by paying me useless, perverted attention.
When I hear non-BW relay their happy (albeit sexual, casual) experiences with BM (who've shat on us to them BTW), I'm left with the feeling that BM are simply not interested in getting to know me. I've learned to accept that and keep it moving.
I had a glimmer of hope 2 years ago, when I went on a date with a "good" BM (educated, good job, no babymommas, funny, Hip Hop lover, bar fly, didn't hate "deep" topics like politics and world affairs). He didn't present himself as a walking resume devoid of a personality. Child, that glimmer burned out with the convo after our first and last date. The date went well too so I was shocked. He was a gentleman and was really interesting.
We discussed relationships and somehow got into the topic of cheating. This dude told me that women should just accept that all men cheat and that there's nothing they can do about it. He also said that how women can deal with it is by allowing their men a "cheating pass" and engaging in threesomes with them. I said "What about disease?" He said "Use condoms." I immediately lost interest.
I've come to accept that I more than likely won't marry a Black man *Shrugs*
Not all Black men hate Black women but we can certainly look at a pattern of behavior as an indication of an awful lot of disdain at the very least.
1. Not being able to walk down the street w/o unwanted verbal abuse (cat-calling) that can escalate to physical (no male should ever put his hands on a woman - or often it's a teenage girl)
2. The sexual abuse that goes unreported. Be it from family or acquaintance rape (aka running trains).
3. Men who are inadequate (lack of jobs, lack of education and NOT TRYING TO GET EITHER) complaining about feeling emasculated. If you were pulling your own weight this wouldn't be an issue.
4. Using women for sex and abandoning any children that result from these casual "relationships". If it's just one woman finding any excuse under the sun to NOT MARRY HER.
5. Chasing after white-skinned women and non-Black women BUT berating any Black woman (that wasn't good enough for you) for looking for other men equally. I can't tell you how many Black men who are complete strangers take it upon themselves to offer an opinion if I'm so much as walking down the street with a white guy.
6. Devaluing Dark(er) Skin and Nappy Hair in Women. Why is it that a "chocolate" guy is ok but not a woman? This isn't just coming from Black men but can you name them off the top of your head who are married to a very brown woman? If you look at famous men forget it? No Denzel and Samuel don't count.
7. The acceptance of out-of-wedlock births. It's 70%. Do you know of any other ethnic group of people who allow the women in their communities to be left behind raising kids on their own the way Black people do? Pls don't try to talk about welfare and system putting men out because if they had a JOB nobody would have to apply for gov't aid.
8. The violence in the majority of Black neighborhoods and the acceptance of a criminals as (good kids gone bad who are still somehow "momma's babies"). All of the time effort and talent being put into selling drugs and all other sorts of illegal activity could be channelled into something productive. If you can't play outside for fear of being shot, if you get called "white" for speaking proper English, if you have no daddy and a momma who has to work 2-3 jobs that is a problem. Black men kill each other more than any racist cops but where's the protest/outrage for that?
If that's not hatred I don't know what is. It's apathy, it's allowing things to fall apart. It's I'm gonna do me and you do you. And for all of those "good men" who are around why aren't they publicly shaming all the knuckleheads? Why are community leaders demanding that men step up? If you're on a boat on one end with the other end populated with miscreants the entire boat is still going to sink regardless.
@Anonymiss: Usually black women who do have issues black men are in your situation. All the black men they have come in contact to has been utter trash to them and they have bad relationships with their fathers and the other men in their families. That is a psychological trait that's been imbeded since youth and in your case it truly has been. You have break free from that set of thinking and just dismiss as such. I on the other
hand have not had those kinds of experience. I had a wonderful black father who treated my mother like a queen and plenty of great uncles, male cousins and a cool brother. I think a lot of women though they don't want to admit it have to understand that those men while they have the same traits INO being a black, male and an Asshole does not define that the first two doesn't always equal the latter.
@Actsoffaith:Some of your points are on it and some kind of fall flat. Its like I said before a lot of us "good" black women don't exactly call out the trifling ones either now do we? I'm all about personal responsibility. Some of those things can be prevented. Why are women spreading their legs for men they knew were trifling from the beginning and then are shocked when they keep moving. I'm all for celibacy but still why are alot of us going around here having unprotected sex with these men as well. If alot of black women would stop doing that alot of those things you mentioned earlier would drastically start to decline.IMO
RainaHavock:
Hey. Can you please clarify this sentence?: "I think a lot of women though they don't want to admit it have to understand that those men while they have the same traits INO being a black, male and an Asshole does not define that the first two doesn't always equal the latter."
With regards to the "psychological trait" (What exactly is this "trait" BTW?), I'd have to say that I'm noticing a psychological pattern amongst a certain generation of BM and boys. I'd made no generalizations of BM but I have to be fully aware and careful because of what I've experienced and because of what currently goes on in the Black community.
@Anonymiss: No problem. This Psychological Trait, though I admit was probably not the best way to describe it, is a person pattern of thinking and how we use similar traits to determine a situation's outcome. This is something all humans do. I know you didn't generalize I was justing giving an example since you said it yourself you don't have hardly any positive feelings towards black males. The black communities though one untied front does varies from place to place. I was raised in a upper middle class were most of the residents were black so when I see things maybe different than someone who wasn't raised in my environment. I hope this make sense forgive me it's late and I've been studying Calculus so my brain is a little on the friz.
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